[The following transcript of a 1986 discussion with Thea, was originally published in The Vishaal Newsletter, Volume 1, Number 4, August 1986. Link to Part One]
Discussions with Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet
15 June 1986, Stone Ridge, New York
What is your view of Kundalini? What I have been taught is that the whole process of Kundalini, is that it rose from the lower chakra and came up to the top of the head. And then...we were in another state of consciousness; and the lower sexual energies ― whatever ― were transcended. Hasn't that always been a traditional part of yoga?
Well this I find a very interesting question because, you see, you're getting into...they call it Kundalini Yoga, but really the basis of this is the Tantra. Tantric Yoga, a very old path, an interesting path. Dealing with the Shakti, the Divine Mother. Very interesting this, because apparently this is a path that accepts the Mother, that accepts Matter. It deals with that. But yet, you understand that the whole process is to come up and out. So, basically it's using this energy to project oneself again out. Because your body then becomes the image of the cosmos. It becomes that thing. And you are doing the same thing. You are projecting yourself out. And you do attain this higher consciousness, this Brahman Consciousness. Surely.
This is a part of Sri Aurobindo's work — precisely this Ascent and Descent. And this is the important key because then it is contained in the body. Now, the discoveries that I have made are certain key points where these two things join, and what happens when they join. So, in this work, for example, you don't experience the rise of the Kundalini as such, which you may experience in other paths, when really you can feel it. In this, you may and you may not. But you do experience the centres. At certain points they become active. And the difference is because at the same time, simultaneously you are experiencing the Descent. And the Descent is your protection really. The Descent is what keeps you in the body.
The descent of ‘What’?
That's a good question too, because you see you experience it as a descent of the light, as a descent of the force, the peace, whatever. The only difference is that when it is combined with this other movement, it is always dynamic. This is the point. So, it is contained in the body, and this makes it a dynamic aspect of the Divine Consciousness. You feel it as a Grace, you feel it in many ways. Usually people who are doing this Yoga physically feel a force, coming in and descending. Of course there are different degrees. We can go on saying, well the Supramental Descent, YES, but wait. Because that requires an integral process also. So, there are different degrees of this descent of energy, force, Divine Consciousness...whatever you want to call it. Depending on what you are able to receive, and also depending on the total conditions that allow for this. So, it's a force. Call it Consciousness, that takes forms according to your particular needs, your particular stage of evolution. You may call it the Divine Grace. I mean, the Dove coming down...that photo of Agni-in-the-Core in The New Way. The impression is that. But of course there you have geometrically this combination, that you do not have anywhere else.
We were talking about the spiritual ‘supermarket’ that exists in the United States. There is so much. Could you say a word; How does one find the right path? How is one directed to find the right path for himself?
Well, you know, that is why in India they consider that in a lifetime when you find your real guru, that is the most blessed lifetime; and that is why they revere the Guru — because of this. Because it is not easy. And you may pass many lifetimes and you don't come upon it. It is really a supreme grace when you come to the point that you have met your master you see? And what can I say? It is not something that anybody can impose. The only thing that you can do is to put yourself inwardly in the condition to receive. And it will definitely come. Now, a way that you can go about this is this opening to the Divine, and this conscious call, this conscious offering of yourself for this purpose: that you be given this grace. There is really nothing else that you can do, to leave yourself inwardly prepared. That doesn't mean to become stupid and accept anything, because one of the sayings of Sri Aurobindo is that people came to the Ashram for his work, they came to lose the ego but the first thing they lost was their common sense!
This is certainly what happens in America! Not only America. All over! You know, when people start justifying things. There's a breakdown of a certain ashram, and then you hear all of these justifications: Well, the Guru really meant this and he…What? He meant what he meant! Unless you really have a perception to see that this is a certain strategy.... But mostly in these movements things are very clear. You have to be very careful and be discriminating.
And also it seems, at least in this country, many movements start out quite pure, and then these energies come into them....
In our latest newsletter, the Vishaal [1/2, June, 1986] I discuss this situation, especially in terms of eastern teachings that have come here. I was talking about movements coming from the East and getting swallowed up...
And good teachers becoming really corrupted.
It is remarkable, what goes on. Because they are coming here and they are confronting a power that is the contribution of the United States to this world process. And they are confronting it here, really the heart of materialism. I mean in its purest sense. As a solution. As a poise. As opposed to Spirit. Solution, on the material plane. This emphasis, this focus on that. And they come here, and they tell you — all of them — (again we come right back to the same problem) they tell you: It's an illusion.
Buddhism is very strong in this country, and though the Buddha didn't preach that, this was the general outcome of his teachings. That it is an illusion and you must accept it as that, and be done with it as soon as possible. So, they come here and they think that they are going to save everyone. What are they basically preaching? Again it is some otherworldly reward, or state.... And again, because they are not...it is an escape process and they are not poising themselves properly to deal with this phenomenon that is the United States, they are undermined in this. And they succumb to this. They must. Again, it is almost mathematical. They have to succumb to that. They think they are going to bring eastern spirituality here, and what happens is they don't have the power, they don't have the poise to withstand this impact. And these collapses come; they are overtaken. Because they are denying the truth in this. Constantly. So that denial leaves them vulnerable. And the process goes on.
This is why the solution has to be this real integration of what the East represents and what the West represents; and that is then something higher. It is not taking this and taking that and putting them together. It's this higher thing that integrates those two. And that is what we are in the process of bringing down, and discovering: this higher poise that brings about integration. If you ignore that, if you ignore that there is such a possibility of doing such a thing, you get lost over here, you get lost over there. It is inevitable. And money! That's the key to it.
That doesn't make the philosophies bad, it's just somehow they don't travel very well. I wonder how effective the eastern philosophy is in the West, at all.
They're ineffective. Certainly they are not the solution. I don't mean to sound intolerant, but I am just telling you the fact which I think you can see for yourselves: that we haven't found a solution. Of course people are very disturbed because then they say, ‘Well, the problem is that we must find a western solution.’
Yoga for the West.
Yes, you know, it goes on and on like this. But it's all the same thing. There is a universal work, there is something that goes beyond this kind of division. And this is what is being born today. This is mainly the reason for this interchange: so that everybody is ready for it.
A lot of people have had very significant and powerful experiences, no matter how impure the teaching was by the time they got it. It has helped them on. I have had experiences that have helped me on my path, to get to a point where I am receptive to other things.
Yes, this is it. And exposed you to things. Thirty years ago young people did not even know the word yoga existed. They didn't know what it was. The terminology. If you are interested in astrology: look how many people can now appreciate better the Gnostic Circle because they know that something like the 12 zodiacal signs exist. They know the symbols. Before this wasn't possible.
Another thing we were discussing was our relationship to the religion we were brought up in. And all three of us said we were no longer very interested in Judaism. And yet, what was the significance of having incarnated in Jewish bodies? Do we have to come to terms with that in a certain way, or are we free to become yogis or whatever we wish? Do you see a conflict there?
There's the same conflict that anybody would have who was born...I mean, I was born into a Catholic family and, well, I don't find any traces of that at all. However, culturally of course there are, and we carry that along.
Spiritually, do we have to come to terms with this spiritually in any given incarnation?
No, I really don't think so in terms of spirituality; but, you know, when you do find your way, there is that immediate recognition. As happened to me, for example. The language was the one. You understood it right away, you vibrated to it. And this had nothing to do with what a Catholic...but it wasn't Hindu also. It was Sri Aurobindo's language which was also new. This work is as revolutionary in India as it may be anywhere else. In India the only difference is that they'll all sit and say, Yes, Yes...because the Hindus accept absolutely anything! Everybody says yes-yes-yes, but nobody does anything! So they all agree, and you don't get any flak. It's all wonderful, and the Divine is wonderful, and everybody is so full of bhakti. That's it. And they mean it sincerely. It is not a pose; in every fibre of their beings, they are the most tolerant people in the world.
But you see, in India too they have moved away from this, and they have not accepted this solution here. They have finally come to that grand proclamation that material creation is an illusion. That was the height of what they reached, until Sri Aurobindo came along. It was in the Middle Ages that they reached that; and believe me, it is such a strong imprint that it seems almost impossible to get over it.
You're talking about the Lila?
Yes, it is supposed to be an ‘illusion’.
So, the problems for everybody in this respect are the same. The Jewish problem is very interesting because of the condition of western society — Jewish and Christian at the same time. Again you have to look at these things: What are these religions, what are these peoples? I have written many chapters on this in the third volume of The New Way, on the Jews and the Arabs and this development of the mental and the vital. Each one representing that. Now, it seems crazy: How can a people represent this? Well, you take the Arabs, — just to give you a little detail of the Arabs representing the vital being in the world sense. And isn't it clear: ENERGY. Look at what they did to the world in 1973. That turned everything upside-down. They had this ‘black gold’, and everything was in reaction to that. And you take it just in terms of animal symbols too, because you have the Horse that represents that vital energy from very ancient times. And you have the most magnificent horse that came out of the Arab world: the Arabian, and the Thoroughbred.
Little things like that will give — apart from the characteristics of the race, of the religion that formed out of it — the nature of the race. And then you have the Jewish, of course, that represents the mental. Very clear. You see?
So right now they are at each other's throats, and rather than be integrated...
There is no solution.
There can't be a solution.
On that level there is no solution. Only when the higher ‘thing’ manifests.
But wouldn't you have thought it would have happened earlier when there was the transition from the vital to the mental, rather than at this point, when we are in the transition from the mental to the spiritual?
No, because now we are going into these higher levels where this is possible. Before it wasn't at all. You have to complete these circles before you get to the point where you can...
But it is more possible?
Well if it is not possible now it is not going to be possible at any other time! Because it is one way or the other now. Remember, it is the 9th Manifestation. That's the key. It is the 9th Manifestation. From the 9th you extend your boundaries. And that is exactly what is happening now. Then you go to the point of integration and unity, — the 10th, 11th, and 12th.
I have another question which is, how, if at all, does this teaching deal with the concept that there are souls that incarnate on other galaxies, and then come to Earth; either as rescue souls, or whatever, at certain points in evolution here.
Oh gosh, I have had to deal with this problem....
I can see it's not one of your favourite subjects!
No, I...again, it's slightly irrelevant, in a sense. You know, anything is possible. Well, I certainly believe that we are seeing something from outer space; that the people that are seeing these, are seeing. But the question is, What are we seeing? Where is it coming from? Is it coming really from another galaxy? Or is it from another dimension that now has taken this form, because we are in this Age. There are so many descriptions of things in the Bible; of visions that people have, or angels. Well, now people see a man from Mars, or something else, from Sirius, or some other galaxy. Much of this is conditioned. So, there is something behind it all, you see. But people have to realise that the form that it takes is very largely conditioned by our stage of evolution. We are in the space age; so obviously we like those kind of solutions. That's one aspect.
The other aspect is; what has that got to do with the Earth, really? I think that again this is a solution from outside. This is saying, ‘well we are going to be saved by something from outside.’ I know that that is not so.
When I ask I'm not coming from that point. I almost didn't ask, because I felt, it really is not relevant. There still is the work that needs to be done here. But I do think it's relevant, on the other hand, because while you were talking...you know when it came into my head actually? It was when you were talking about the human being evolving and at certain points in the life if the right choice is not made, then these crusts will develop. It occurred to me that perhaps a soul...I've been told that I am a soul that came to this Earth during the Atlantean era and that I was from a place called ‘Arcturus’.
Great!... I'm not ridiculing this, I just find it interesting.
It doesn't matter. It doesn't mean anything to me. It's not useful for me to know that. But it still is perplexing because it makes me want to know, do souls incarnate on Earth and take part in the cycle and then just go off somewhere else?
Well, they may. But honestly I've dealt with this VERY DEEPLY lately. I can't tell you how deeply I've dealt with this very galaxy!
And I have great respect for certain people...prominent ones from that galaxy! But the point is that...they don't have the answers. And why? Because they really are closed in that perception that they have come and that they are bringing something, and they have a special mission to help. They are involved in this whole lifting off the planet when the axis.... Well, now what happens here again is that they have not understood what the nature of the work is, what the Earth as a planet signifies, and what its purpose is in the solar system. And that's all I'm concerned with.
If you're coming from Arcturus and you're going to help, that's well and good; but you've got to do this. Whatever you bring from Arcturus is not going to be any solution here at all, because, you see, it is the total conditions at each moment; and you cannot reproduce those any place else. Or else you don't come into this body. Then you really come in a space suit, or whatever, with all your gear and you go back again. But you cannot reproduce this. The work must be done in the body, and rooted here and with all the solutions that all the totality of these conditions can provide. And they cannot come from outside.
They may be souls that are evolved, in a certain sense they have experienced different things, and have a certain maturity and wisdom; but those people are still infants when they come into this. Because the conditions are different. And require different solutions.
Again, I find this another escape. It is fascinating because it's a wave going through the United States. You get these communications, from automatic writing, or whatever, and people believe absolutely anything that comes through. And it's all very flattering...probably they even told you that you have a mission, you're going to do this, that and the other. That is usually the way it goes on. It was obviously an ‘evolved’ soul that has come back. Nobody was just a little sweeper, a garbage collector, or something like that. It's something very grand sounding. And as you said very rightfully, So what?
There you are, stuck in that body, with all your complexes or your whatever...and you've got to deal with that, and how are you going to deal with it? It doesn't help you in the least to know these things. Even if it were true. And most people that really are that, don't bother with it. In fact, they don't even know. And it never comes to them. It may very well be, but it's just that somehow these things then take possession of people and they deviate from the...
That's right. This came through a psychic and I had put off going to a psychic for a very long time because I saw a lot of people using information that came from psychics as a way of avoiding responsibility for their own lives and dealing with external solutions.
How did she get this, by automatic writing?
She has a source. It comes through a source, and she is a channel.
Well, it's the same thing.
Right. But I had the same response which was, on one level, this was very interesting, but it doesn't really change what...you know, it doesn't change...
And the point is that it may not be true, and then you are carried.... Usually it is not true. Usually it's imaginative, and there are beings that are playing a lot of games in other dimensions. You know, they are communicating a lot of things to create a very big confusion.
And why? Why is this taking place? Because really, now comes the crunch! Everybody wants to stamp their own image on what is taking place here. It is not even wicked, as such. It's just that there are forces, as there are forces that work for the destiny of the Earth itself, in attunement with the Earth's soul, there are forces that have a completely different purpose; and would like to see their solutions, or their image stamped upon this, in total ignorance.
You know, what I find very interesting is that some of these psychics, for example, are contacting people who lived here and have died, right? They have their sources and they contact those people, and they have their ‘friends’ on the other side, or whatever. And somehow, just the fact that it's a disembodied entity, makes everything true! If they had a limited consciousness here, they've got the same limited consciousness on the other side. They may know a few other things, they may be able to predict, on a very limited scale, happenings; because they can manipulate certain forces and allow for things to happen. But this is all on a very, very limited level. And this is the danger, because if you know this, and if you deal with this consciously, it can be very interesting. If you don't, it can be extremely dangerous. Really dangerous. Or else just distracting.
Can all the comments that you've just made be applied to Ramtha?
I've heard that name, among all the...on the West coast, isn't it? I've heard through another person, who has a different ‘source’ (!) I haven't read the writings of this Ramtha, so I can't comment directly; I would have to see them. Somebody said it was awful, and this, that and the other. There were things apparently that were positively awful! I'd have to see it myself. But, I can say that usually the level of these things is very old — old consciousness. This is what I have felt of any of those communications that I have picked up. It is an old, old consciousness. And it really has nothing to do with the real work.
So it's a problem, because some people are greatly uplifted by these things. For some people it is their only contact with something out of the material, something which they can term ‘spiritual’. And they don't see the limitation. In India people understand this in very great depth: the occult planes; how these forces work. Tantra deals with that.
So in India they make a clear distinction between occult practices and spiritual practices, while in America they don't understand this at all. And therefore they just push it [the distinction] aside.
Now in this Yoga you don't. You cannot say, I want only the spiritual and not the occult, because the occult practices are dealing with that Cosmic Body of the Mother. That is where all of that is going on; and that's a very important part. But you see, it can be that ‘maya’, that temptress, that illusion; in terms of the Rig Veda, she is called ‘Diti’. Or it can be Aditi, the Mother of Light, the Mother of Unity, the Mother of Bliss. So, you have these two things, and it is a very fine line. One of the most difficult experiences is when you see these two sides of the thing, — the dark and light of the same Mother, and you don't know what the ultimate solution is.
So, it is not possible to say: Just leave it all aside. I think what really one has to say is, ‘Be very careful and find a guide who you can trust in these matters, if you really feel...’ If it is not your destiny to go along that way and you really want a spiritual level, it's best then just to leave it alone because it can lead you astray. And if it is your destiny that you work on a more integral thing, then it's good to have somebody who knows about these things, as a guide. And usually the people who are serving as mediums are not very evolved in that way. They are usually just channels through whom this is coming. So, between you and that disembodied entity, whoever, you have got to rely on your own discrimination. And most of us simply do not have the knowledge.
I saw part of the ‘Ramtha Tapes’, which are being circulated in this country. It was very interesting to watch just what happened to the woman when she became that, and the way she spoke. A lot of what was said was said in humour, almost in a flippant way. There was a great deal of flippancy. But, oddly enough, some of Sri Aurobindo's teachings were presented.
They do. They do.
It's not the old teaching. There are new teachings coming through, about the evolution of the new body. It got so silly...a really mixed bag.
That is the whole problem. These entities do have access to certain information. Everybody is now onto the thing about the new body. It's clear that something has happened, cosmically, let's say, to allow these things. But it is what you said: a mixed bag. That's the problem. That's the most serious problem, it is that [is how?] how are you going to distinguish? And one thing is a contact like that. Another thing is really getting involved. Now I know this because I have dealt with this thoroughly. I've done this myself, and I know it thoroughly, how it works. And I know the point at which you have to be very careful, because, yes, so many things come through that are simply astounding. But it's a mixture. In the experiences that I had it wasn't so much the mixture; that wasn't the problem. But I could see.... I received years ago volumes of things, that today people are publishing. Well, I destroyed them all because I said, what's the point, what am I going to do with this. It was like a weight. So one day — I was in India — I just made a bonfire of the whole thing! It wouldn't have occurred to me, ever, to publish these things. Yet these people go on doing it. Well, it can be very important for your own personal development. I had a particular contact, and of course it identified itself as the Divine Mother...well, but I had to test it constantly, and really put itself and myself through very difficult situations, in order to be able to come to the truth of what was behind it, how it functions. For your own personal development, if you have a contact like that, sometimes it can of course be very important. But the way it is being used today is simply another ego manifestation. Usually the solutions are old, as I say. They may say some things...and they usually say what you want to hear. I mean, it is very clever manipulation that is very difficult for people to deal with. We don't know how. We don't have that knowledge.
Tantric yogis, for example, can deal with those things, but they go through very long and severe initiations, a whole process that allows them to do this. And still there is always a danger, still. But because they do worship the Mother, the Shakti, they have to deal with that. They cannot...because, as I say, all of this is taking place within the cosmic body: the Mother, within that Cosmic Body. And if you are following a path like that, you invariably come to this point, when you have to discriminate. But you make a discrimination. And you know what is coming from an even higher source.
So, that's all I have to say. Each case is very individual in this. You have to go into it, you have to see what it means for that person. What I always say is, ‘All right then, MOVE ON.’ That was interesting, it mentioned Sri Aurobindo, it might have reminded you, might have been a source to remind you of something. But you move on to more solid work. But I find a lot of these people don't because they are flattered and they create then a whole cult around this. This is happening in America.
Including a lot of money.
It's phenomenal the money that people pour out because of these kind of...
The spiritual teachings I received from Indian teachers always said that you can't take money for teaching about God. You know, that knowledge has to be given free. Or if there is some, it is minimal, just so that the teacher can continue to function. But I always feel that when people come to teach about God and they say the seminar about God is $400.... There is something not quite right about that!
There was one who had a happy balance in all this, to whom I was rather close at one time. I may disagree with some points, but in this.... That was Krishnamurti. I think he handled that beautifully. You know, he was involved with a lot of money always because the people he was with had money. And he lived the best...I mean, his attire, everything. It was always the best. Yet, at least all the times I saw him, in Rome and Gstaad, of course we didn't have to pay to go. He had money, because he started schools, so he needed it for that. But he kept a happy balance in this; he dealt with it in the right way.
You need money. You have to have it, to publish books, to do this, that. I had a terrible conflict in the beginning, where I thought, Well, money, that's out, that's really awful. And of course I had a shock to see the Mother dealing with money. I thought, at that time, that it should have been like Ramakrishna...who couldn't even touch a coin, because if he touched it his fingers BURNED! It was awful.
Well, that was totally stupid, also. It was obviously something unresolved in me at that time, that couldn't deal with this problem. So, there has to be a balance. Sure. Money represents something. We can't deny it; and we have to deal with it, I won't say spiritually, but we have to understand what the force is and why these movements get so much. How is it that they can draw in millions, they become multi-million dollar organisations. And at that point the whole thing is lost.
But I think in a case like Krishnamurti's, for example, whatever he started out with he did not lose. Whether one agrees with what he says or not, is a different thing. But that never contaminated it, this contact with money never did. And he had very rational, very sane dealings with people that followed him. There was never a difficulty, never the scandals that come out.... First class, you know.
That was Krishnamurti's destiny. It was that from the beginning; in fact, that was why he was able to handle it so well.
It's gotten out of hand in this country.
Of course. But everything in that sense has gotten out of hand.
I think part of the reason is that people are so desperate for an answer, they're willing to pay and they think...
...the more they pay, the more true the answer will be.
It follows from that that we are imbalanced, that we work from the left hemisphere of the brain, altogether, in this country?
Well, I really can't go into that deeply. I think that there is a certain amount of truth in that, but I would say that we are functioning from half levels of both. You know what I mean? This is more the answer, that there is a distortion on both. Because if you really go into it, in the areas that each hemisphere governs you find the same kind of distortion. So, I would say that we tend to think of it now in terms of the left being prominent. But, only apparently, really; only on the surface is that true. I think that the problems we face as a society are projections from both sides that are simply not integrated and in harmony, because, again, something else....
This is where Sri Aurobindo's teachings come in, very strongly. This whole matter of a manifestation of what he calls the Supermind, which is something beyond all of this; that is, that would be the governing principle of a new race. And that is why all of this is breaking down now, you see, because this higher principle must come in and establish itself. And then put into right perspective everything. Every part of the being, governed by both — the more emotive and the more intellectual — what we call the mental and the vital.
There is a lot of confusion in this area. For instance in India they talk of the mind; but what I think they're referring to is a mixture of the emotions and the intellect...
I think there is a confusion. I agree with you...they often refer to mind also as the spirit. Like the hymns that Vivekananda, that Ramakrishna used to chant, you often find them translated as, ‘O Mind, soar above’ and so on. And there it clearly gives the impression of the spirit. This is what they mean. These are the technicalities that at some point become important to clarify. In the beginning it is just semantics; it is unimportant. But when you get into the Yoga very seriously, at some point you really have to start defining. You want to know what you are dealing with, what Mind is, what Consciousness is, what the Soul is. Make distinctions between these things. Right now it is very interesting the work they are doing on the brain. I think it is extremely interesting, but I think that, again, it's like everything else: it's just the beginning. There are very big possibilities of discovery, as yet not really fully understanding...
[Link to Part III]